Sometimes The Chaplain Needs A Chaplain

The job doesn’t just end when the rig backs into the bay. The hard calls follow you home, and if you’ve ever wondered, “Am I the only one feeling this?” we want you to hear this conversation. We’re joined by Chief Joel Johnson, a Snohomish County fire chief who also serves as a chaplain and peer support lead, to talk about what responder stress really looks like and how to get help before it turns into isolation, burnout, or dangerous coping.

Joel shares his own turning point: responding as a chaplain to the 2014 Oso landslide between Oso and Darrington, a community-shattering disaster that took 43 lives. We talk about what it means to support families through loss while also supporting the firefighters, paramedics, and volunteers working in the middle of it. In small communities, you often know the patient, and that closeness can make even a “normal” call hit in a way you can’t explain.

We also get practical about first responder mental health resources: how peer support works, what chaplains do on scene and off, and why confidentiality in Washington State matters. We dig into the stigma of “just be tough,” the value of counseling and objective third-party support, and why resilience training should be treated like any other high-stakes skill. If you’re in fire, EMS, law enforcement, dispatch, or military transition, this one is a reminder that you’re not alone and you don’t have to white-knuckle it.

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Transcript

Why Residue Sticks

SPEAKER_00 0:08

You know, you spend enough years uh uh in this job, and it leaves something on you. Not always visible, not always something you can name, but it's there. I'm Jake. I'm a firefighter paramedic, and this is Call It Residue. It's a podcast about what this life actually looks like. The calls you carry home, the stuff nobody briefs you on at the Academy, the ugly, the heavy, and sometimes the beautiful. Let's get to it.

Meet Chief Joel Johnson

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Today we are speaking with Chief Joel Johnson, fire chief for a small department in Snohomish County. And he's also a chaplain and does peer support services as well. So thank you for joining us today. Yeah. Thanks for asking. Thanks for the opportunity. I've known you for 10 years now, 11 years. Yeah, I'd say I'd say we're probably right at 11 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

I think this this spring, this summer is yeah, I think it's 11 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

And I've worked for you directly for three. Yes. So thank you for that. Oh, for sure. We're glad you're on the team. Well, tell us about yourself, how you got in the fire service, where you grew up.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Sure. Yeah. So uh I was born and raised on a farm in Illinois. So really no direct ties to the fire service, other than, you know, similar to like other small rural communities, there's a small uh volunteer fire department was really the only connection I had. Grew up, worked on the farm, had, you know, just a bunch of variety of experiences that can come from that. Actually went to college at a small school in Missouri that was for ministry. I actually have a my undergrad degree is in Bible and theology of all things. And started out, met my wife there, and we got married, and we actually um pastored for the last, well, we we basically pastored for about nine, 10 years full time. And then that was that was kind of life. While I was pastoring, I was approached by another member of our congregation who served as a chaplain in the region, and he said, Hey, would you ever consider this? I said, you know what? That's funny. I've actually thought about that. Although not having had a real direct tie with first responder world up to that point, I I just had a heart for it. Just seeing what they did, what they went through, what they responded, you know, where they responded and all that weight they'd have to carry. I just wanted to be there. Not to mention try to be there for the community members that they were serving. Because unfortunately, people don't call 911 for all the good news. Just for fun. Just for fun. Hey, yeah. Just want to let you know I had a great day at work today.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah. Or hey, come over for a barbecue. Yeah. You get called for the fire that starts the barbecue.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. When they inevitably try to burn half their house down. That's that's when we get called, you know. Hey, you know, 911, just want to let you know that, hey, we just brought our baby home from the hospital. No, it's hey, there's imminent birth happening. You got to come help us get to the hospital or whatever. So I just really had a heart for that. So we went out and met and I I got plugged in with a with a local nonprofit, and yeah, just really kind of fell in love with that. So that was how I started into the fire and and honestly police side of things. So first responder service. And that's just kind of how I sat. Is that here in Washington or No, that was yeah, that was still here in Washington. That was starting with Arlington and quickly started just learning and shadowing and was getting ready to set up. There's believe it or not, even in Washington State, there's actually an academy available for first responder chaplains. And so I was getting ready to do that and had been kind of shadowing for a little bit, about a year.

The Oso Landslide Changed Everything

SPEAKER_02 3:50

And what really kind of changed the direct or the directory of my whole life, the the destiny, if you will, not to use too lofty language of the whole life was as many of your listeners would probably know, March 22nd, 2014, there was a landslide between Oso and Darrington that uh killed 43 people, wiped out an entire community. And I family friends, family, exactly. And yeah, yeah, friends, family, people we, you know, people you'd know, people you may have met, you know, that sort of thing. That would, you know, people that were just very intrinsically tied to the Oso and Darrington communities and beyond. And I just got home, my wife and I had just had a happy moment where we were just getting home from the hospital from the birth of our daughter. Yeah. And so I was just kind of just chilling, available, and I get a phone call that says, Hey, can you there's this call happening in Oso, not sure what it is, because it came out just as a single engine response. It was basically a service call and and said, Hey, would you go help? You know, they're asking for potentially a chaplain. And it's like, okay, sure, yeah. Okay. I'm thinking I'm going to respond and go help this family that is displaced. And I'd had some training and different stuff like this, but this was my first solo call. I didn't have another chaplain that was shadowing me or helping me out. There was just nobody available, and I was the closest. I was only a few miles away.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Oh, yeah, live there.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I live, I lived, I lived in the area. And it was like, so, you know, hook up with my wife and say, Hey, I'm I'll go, I'll be back in a couple hours. And obviously, you know, as we look back on the history of that, it was not something as simple as, you know, a small little landslide that had taken out the roof of a barn and blocked the highway, ended up being this, you know. Just a mile long. It was a mile, a mile square basically. And then, you know, with the flooding and all the other stuff that went, you know, it was even beyond that by the time the the peak of the flooding and everything. So it affected, you know, even more homes that weren't directly affected by the slide. It was directly affected by the flooding afterwards. And so, yeah, I ended up staying there for you know, for a couple days straight, you know, spent the night in a in a rig on a barn on a high place because we didn't know if it was gonna catastrophically fare, but fail, you know, when when everything was blocked up and backed up. And so, but my first job really at that point was a member of the Oso Fire Department, who actually lived in that community. And he just happened to not be home that day. But unfortunately, his wife and his granddaughter are missing. And so my very first assignment after things kind of settled, because I'd I'd been put in, like asked a scribe for, you know, for the IC and do a bunch of this other stuff. But my first like real dive into chaplain stuff was here's this, here's this guy who is fearing the worst. And unfortunately, you know, we we realized pretty quickly that those worst fears were going to be confirmed. And so yeah, he lost his wife and his granddaughter in the slight. And my my goal was with him and with everybody else was to try to provide as much comfort as possible. And so that really, from that day on, being there 38 days straight afterwards really changed the trajectory of my life. And that's that's how instead of being full-time in ministry, there was opportunities, I was able to start becoming full-time in the fire service and and then volunteer, you know, at the local church or something like that. So that's kind of the the backstory of how I got into that.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

You were there when, you know, for those of us that believe in a gr a greater power, right? A higher power, um, when your community need uh needed you the most. And it's just you were there and you're like the the unknown about you know, on how far it was. I know I've heard a couple of different stories where people were like, yeah, we weren't sure who was talking on the other end because you heard voices, but it was just our own voice. Right. Like echoing off.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah, I mean, there there was both that. There was there were, yeah, I can remember it's funny because I was just talking with Oso's fire chief Willie Harper about, you know, just we actually, he and I actually got to go up and present them at Alaska about lessons learned from the slide. And and that was one of the things we talked about, is just we we had no idea of how immense this issue was. And you were hearing voices, and some of it was just, yeah, echoes in the valley, but some of it was there are people that ended up being rescued. Yeah, but they were so much farther away and they sounded closer, the other echo was playing it. So yeah, it just became this immense thing. And and so yeah, I got embedded as like the first responding chaplain and stayed and kind of billy goaded as we as we joke. Yeah, once the incident management team came in and everything, I just got a chance to just be involved mostly on the west side, but bounced back and forth between the east and west sides and just helped. And again, helping the families that needed it, helping with we know there was recoveries and stuff, just making sure that those were all handled respectfully and uh there was a good pass on to other chaplains that were waiting to help the family or you know, with the ME's office or whatever whatever it was. And yeah, so it was just a life-changing experience, and that was for an entire community. Yeah, for everybody and for everybody. And and I I would say, you know, I I've told people like it, yeah, it changed it changed my life, but the effects of how it changed my life, I've been able to see some positive effects for that. There were some people that just they still live with that every day, and it's just terrible. And so so that's what really got me really just cemented into the the chaplain and first res and f first responder peer support world, is I just wanted to see people experience I I don't want to see people experience tragic events, but since first responders experience that on a regular basis, I wanted to do everything that I could to make sure that they could respond to those and handle those in the healthiest way possible.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, and have that healthy outlook at the end of it. Sure. You know, because we all coming from a first responder side of, you know, I always thought that, okay, am I the only one feeling this way? Am I the only one like, you know, because you go to the critical like critical incident scene management groups, and you know, some people are sharing a lot, some people aren't sharing a lot, and you're like, which one am I supposed to be? Sure, you know, and having an outlook or a person to bounce stuff off of, you know, I know I've bounced stuff off of you for for years, and I've always enjoyed as far as your outlook on life.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Appreciate that. Maybe you've much you must have uh must have caught me on some good days.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Well, you know, you're your your your your role as a fire chief is different than your role as a chaplain and it's true support, right?

Leading Volunteers With People First

SPEAKER_00 10:53

So as a volunteer fire chief, you are one, you run a very large volunteer department. There's what 44 of us?

SPEAKER_02 11:04

I think I I think if you if you count our community volunteers, first responder volunteers, our our paramedic volunteers, everything like that, we're at 51 on the roster.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, yeah, 51. So that's a pretty large, large uh group, you know, that you know responds to almost everything. And how do you take that hat and change it? Do you do that for this department directly or call somebody else?

SPEAKER_02 11:27

That's a good question. So so I guess let me answer that in two parts. One, I I'm grateful for for my time as a chaplain and continue to be as a chaplain because I actually think that it has helped me out in my fire chief role. Yes, we have a mission and we have a vision to to be the you know the best department that we can be, just like any other fire department in the world. We want to provide the best care for our community. But what really helps is because I'm just I've I've been able to be so people-oriented, so responder-oriented, because that's how I got into this, is that it reminds me on a very regular basis that our people are our best, you know, the best part of accomplishing that mission. Yeah. If we if I don't have a group of people that are healthy mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, how can they go out and serve the community to the best of their abilities? Especially from a volunteer standpoint. These are people that are getting up at two o'clock in the morning to have to be leaving for work at five or six o'clock in the morning. And there's an expectation for them to get out of bed when that page or the phone goes off to go help their friend, their loved one, their neighbor, their community member. And so I think it, I think it helps me. And as far as this kind of the second part to that is the nice part is we do have, even at my own agency, we have another member of our agency that serves as a chaplain as well. So I can directly help with that role, internally and externally, but I find that again, because sometimes you just need to have, you just don't want to go talk to the fire chief about everything going on. Right. So we do actually have another chaplain directly with our agency. His name's Tim, wonderful guy, volunteer, uh local pastor, um, all this kind of stuff. And he he's there for people. And he can be there in ways for people that maybe I can't, again, just because you know those lines get blurred a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

But then we also have a greater network of chaplains that we could or peer support that we could refer people to if it needed more than that.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Now, all peer support trained. I know you went to the peer support with some people that are from my department. Yeah, went to another training. Yeah. Yeah. Do you call on them to come up here, or is it just a different, like a closer department?

SPEAKER_02 13:49

That's a great question. I mean, you know, thankfully we haven't had to have too many of those up the valley since the slide. It's been very sporadic since then and knock on wood, we can keep it that way. But yeah, just like the nice part is that peer support, if you look at it from a you know regional kind of system, is that yeah, when you're in that and you go through trainings and and you network and all this kind of stuff, you have a broad group of people, a broad network that can come in and help you out as you need it. Yeah. You know, people that you trust that that know what's going on because they're peer support, and you get a good chaplain that's in there too, that really understands the first responder culture and everything like that. And then even, you know, just within our own network, we have clinical representation. We have like counselors, psychologists, and everything like that that can come and help with that too, for anything that's maybe even just above what normal peer support can help with.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

So do you are are you referring people to that or like or can they go to that themselves?

How Peer Support Actually Works

SPEAKER_02 14:49

So yeah, so great, great question. So the the process would be, I would say a typical process is this. And I and I'm I'm obviously there's exceptions to all this, but the typical process is this from a peer support standpoint. Let's say that there's a responder who's struggling. It could be it could be, you know, we could sit here and talk about all the different types of struggle, but say it's a it's a call that was just heavier and they're having a hard time.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Especially in this area, knew the patient, maybe knew. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Especially in in that's the problem is if you live and serve in the same community, there the chances are you're going to have to respond to somebody that you know. So yeah, let's say something like that. Say it's something at home. Let's say it's, you know, a struggle with, you know, a relationship, you know, family or, you know, whatever, drama, drama going on in your personal life. Or, or it could be something, you know, the unfortunate part is is there's a real problem with, you know, uh abuse of drugs or alcohol or something like that too. So it starts there. They it's either observed or they make the first move and talk to somebody that is in their dedicated peer support team, and they just start having a conversation. I mean, it's really the biggest thing with peer support can do is is just talk and and listen and and really emphasize on that listening part and see where they're at. And then without fear of being Yeah, there's no repercussions, right? It's you know, I would want all your listeners to know that if you talk to a chaplain, if you talk to peer support, other than something that would be a break. Yeah, other yeah, exactly. Other than something that would be a mandatory reporting type deal, it is it is protected, at least in Washington State. That is protected conversation. It's similar to like a like a pastor, um, a congregant or a priest parishioner type deal. Like it is, it is protected, you know, unless unless a judge were to rule otherwise for some reason. But so you can go in there open and honest and really share what's going on. And if they need more resources, then you could go to your peer support lead. And if they need more resources, they could go to a chaplain or or their peer support coordinator for the for the area. Like for us, I'm part of a nonprofit that's called Pacific Northwest Support Services. And so there's there's three of us that act as like kind of peer support leads that if there's something that's needed, we can help with that. And then our director, her name's Julie. She does a great job. We just, again, through that network of everything. So if it as it keeps growing, if people need more and more, well, now we can open it up to outside resources. We can get counseling going on. We can send you to retreat centers and different things like that if you need it, like intensives, you know, two weeks, four weeks, you know, 12 weeks, whatever it is. Like we work with your admin without without sharing any information other than necessary information. And, you know, we work, we can work and help advocate for for family medical, you know, PFML and L and I or whatever it is, and really get you all the help that you need because it's worth investing a relatively short amount of time right at the beginning to help people process to help get all the tools in their toolbox and everything, than it is for somebody to struggle for years on end.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Well, yeah, like, you know, coming from my end where I felt like I was alone and that no one was experiencing this and no one could help me.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Right. Even though I didn't want to talk about it because of some of the stuff that I had experienced of like, you know, hey, I don't I don't need you to talk about this in the counseling. It's like, but it says that on your door, you know. Had one EAP that was fantastic, but he ended up moving. So it's like, well, you know, and but now to like like that's the goal of kind of this podcast of that you aren't alone. Oh gosh. You have to deal with this alone, you don't have to, there's you don't even have to tell anybody except for the peer support, right, of of what's going on, and then they'll they'll get you the services that you

Confidentiality And Chaplain Myths

SPEAKER_00 18:48

need.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Absolutely. And you know, and if you're if you have the pleasure of working at an agency that has a peer support and chaplain, and I would advocate that you should have both.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

You know, a chaplain sometimes that gives people, you know, that sets off some bells in their mind, like, oh, you know, it's just this pastor, this priest, this religious, you know, whatever, this, you know, this religious leader, whatever, like that maybe they do come from a a religious background. And they may come from a from uh there's a lot of different religious backgrounds they could come from, but their whole goal, if they're a good chaplain anyway, their whole goal is not to proselytize, to not, you know, beat you with, you know, holy books or anything like that. It's it's the idea that, you know, they're not Bible thumpers or anything like that. The idea is they want to be there to help. They are trained and they should have gone through training to just, again, just to even listen and then to be an advocate for you. They need to, they need to advocate for you and get you the help that you need. But the nice part is there are certain aspects or certain questions or anything that come up that a chaplain might be better suited for, and there are better things that peer support might be better suited for. And it really is kind of a one-two punch combo of this like immediate first aid for people that, you know, like this this mental psych, you know, psychology, you know, breakdown of what's going on, but they can be that first aid that can really help. Are they trained counselors? Uh, maybe some of them are, but not not typically. And they're not, they're not, that's not their role.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Are most like religiously trained or are they all backgrounds?

SPEAKER_02 20:28

So again, again, it depends on you know the agency you're part of. I mean, there are there are chaplains. I mean, you even look, it's it's a lot of times in the first responder world, it models off the military. So you can have chaplains from a lot of different faith backgrounds. You know, you could have you could have you know Christian, you could have Jewish, you could have, you know, Muslim, you could have, you know, whatever that that come from that religious background. They should all be able to help you to a degree, but then if you have certain aspect questions of your own personal faith, yeah, that's where that's that. So our agency, you know, and in our area, it's it's mostly Christian, you know, people that people that come from a Christian background that are that are at the very least credentialed by their local church, if not having, you know, national or international credentials. Like for me personally, I am an ordained minister. You know, went to school for it, did all this kind of stuff, and I and I'm ordained. So that's my background.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

But then just online or no, not just online, no.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Although a quick funny story about that, I had a good friend that was going to do a wedding for a family member, and they wanted him to do it, so he had to go get credentialed. And so he did his thing online, and he came back to me and sent me a picture of all this swag. And it was like chapla cards and a t shirt and all this kind of stuff. And he said, Hey, what you paid like tens of thousands of dollars for, I paid $79.99. And I've got it. I've got and it took me 40 seconds, it took you four years, you know. Like it's like it's like touche, touche. But but yeah, so there so I would say to all these people, like, go go to those resources. And then if it's something that you don't have at your home agency, consider talking to maybe another, a friend or somebody that you know that's connected to an agency that has it. And then I'd start opening the conversation with your admin. You know, go go to your battalion chief, go to your chief, go to whoever that you have that relationship and say, hey, you know, I really think that this is something we should look at.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Because the nice part is is again, like I say through this network, like again, I not to speak to any specifics. So these are just general, general things, but you have somebody, let's say somebody who's struggling with alcohol. And I'm using that because I know you've already been op very open to that. Yeah. And it's to the point where it's affecting your life in just every way, way, shape, form. The whole goal of a peer support and chaplain team is to get you the help that you need. And so walk somebody through it. And again, because of the resources and stuff we have, we can literally help get you into certain treatment programs, get in, get you into certain things, be there for follow-up, all that kind of stuff, you know, and this is for anybody. And you talked about it, like your own things, like, oh, what am I the only one struggling with this? No. I would say that if you've thought it, if you've, if you're experiencing or something like that, somebody else has thought something similar or experienced something similar. Now it could be different. Like we all, we all process differently, we all grieve differently, we all, you know, respond differently, whatever it is. But again, there's you're not alone in that.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

No.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

And everybody processes that differently too. So for some, it's just, I just need to be quiet. I just need to get away for a minute. I need to process. Some people need to talk and just get it out. People need to go, some people need to get hit the weight room. You know, some and but the problem is, is those are more healthy ways to do it. Well, when we're in a point where we're trying to find coping mechanisms, sometimes the unhealthy things get in the way. And I think that's where our biggest challenges are as first responders, is that those unhealthy things. And so that's where a chaplain, a peer support, all that kind of stuff can help you with that, to help you process in a healthy manner to remind you that you're not alone and that there are there are ways to get through this without turning to unhealthy things.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

And I think you also brought up a thing about, you know, those chaplain services in the military. Yeah.

Military Roots And Finding Belonging

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Like our current pastor, who's an intern pastor, was a 30-year Air Force chaplain. And, you know, I didn't even think of the chaplain work that they do outside of, you know, just, you know, Sunday Mass or Sunday like like service, right? So that you don't have to go and do PT during during uh during boot camp. You go to Sunday service. Yeah. You know, and yeah, which he jokes about is that where a majority of his his big congregations have been when he was at boot camp. And they were like, hey, I'm not going to PT. I'm going Yeah. Yeah, a lot of a lot of very good church attenders doing during boot camp.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah, I've I've heard those stories too.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

So, but like for the military listeners that are like, you know, I don't want to talk about it, but like, and who is there to talk about? And it's with your military uh chaplain, depending on which which one that you want to go to. Right. And there's tons of them. I just don't think that they're used very much outside of the military when uh when you're out.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Yeah. I mean, and you know, we yeah, I mean, I I have personally experienced, you know, I have friends, relationships with people that have been in transition after being, you know, military was all they knew for eight, 10, 12, you know, 20 plus years, whatever. And transition back into civilian life is really hard.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

And, you know, that'd be one of the, you know, they're looking for that sense of family, they're looking for that belonging, they're looking for that purpose that they maybe experienced in the military, and that and that's hard. And there are programs and stuff that are out there that help with transition. But again, you know, you have a lot of former military members that that become part of a first responder. They're going to first responders. Yeah, they go into law enforcement, they go into fire, EMS, whatever. And that's that's a something that they could be familiar with that I hope they take advantage of.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

And and hopefully that's the chaplain first responders step.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

If they didn't think that they or didn't know those those those services were there, that hopefully that they take the next step to contact those services.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Right. Right. And, you know, and that and that's just it, too. I mean, a good chaplain and peer support program will how do I say this? They're not going to be in your face, but they're gonna you're gonna know that that's available to you. If they're doing their if they're doing a good job within their own departments, you know that they're available. There is some onus on that person to make that first step. At least talk to somebody. At least talk to somebody. A chaplain or peer support person because they're trained, because they might already be kind of just naturally gifted towards, you know, empathy or being able to be very observant or something like that, which tends to be a good character trait of somebody that they might come to you just because they notice something's off, but we also know how good people are at hiding. People can put a mask on and everything's hunky-dory and amazing, and and you're just you're dying inside. And so at some point, you have to make the decision to to want to process through those things. Um, but like I said, a good chaplain or peer support person may be like, hey, you know, for example, hey, hey Jake, uh notice you're kind of off today, you know, or hey, you've you come in late to shift, like the last three rotations. Like, what's what's going on, man? Oh no, I'm fine. I'm just scenario. Yeah, yeah, is it? Right? You know? I I I hey anybody listening from your home agency, I did not know anything about that. That was a hypothetical. But yeah, so that the resources are out there. The hardest part is that push. And that's the other thing, too, I would say to to anybody listening this and anybody I talk to outside of this is if you see something, say something.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

But we're really good at in the not to knock the fire service, but I can knock the fire service a little bit. We're really good at saying stuff, just not to the person that matters most. Oh, he you notice Jake? Like, what's up? What's up with him? Man, he's been really off lately. Go to Jake. Jake, what's going on, bud? Yeah. You know, so we're really you know, we're really good at, you know, maybe talking, just not necessarily in the direction we should. To the person directly. So that's that's where, and that's and that's where it's like, hey, I'll let's go to the peer support together. Hey, let's go talk to the chaplain together. Let's let's honor that brotherhood, that sisterhood that we at least in the you know in the Fire EMS service and and law enforcement and the and you know, and first responder world that we really talk about that we have, let's, let's, let's meet that. Let's get to that.

From Family Care To Responder Care

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Do you guys also do because I mean 10 10 years ago, I thought that the chaplain only came for the family, right? Sure. Like, and so that was my view of the chaplain. And I I really enjoy all the work that you guys do with that because literally we called you, you you show up and then we disappear. Yeah. And you sometimes stay on scene for 12 hours. Oh, yeah, just like it's yeah, the longest that I've seen was 18, besides the slide, of course, where the chaplain was there in the morning and didn't leave until that night. Yeah. And I don't know if it's because they knew the family that I like, I I have no idea because I never talked to that chaplain about that situation again. But do you guys do stuff for like anyone that responded to the scene, like the truck drivers, the like do you guys do that service as well?

SPEAKER_02 29:56

That's a great question. And I would say, I would say you're exactly right. Ten years ago, the chaplain service, at least and I'm speaking to our area, I'm speaking to our region, right? I would say that, yeah, there wasn't a huge, huge emphasis on peer support. And there was a huge emphasis on the chaplain role, but it was more as a community chaplain in the sense of it was the chaplain was was partnered with an agency, and that was another service that the responding agency was giving to the people in their community. So typically what a chaplain, community responding chaplain goes to is when there's a really tough call. And usually out of those tough calls, it's somebody who's passed away. And so then the chaplain comes in, relieves the first responder crew, so they can get back into service and help the next person that needs them, because it's inevitable that the alarms are going to go off again. And they can sit down and talk with the family, give them resources, help them. You know, a lot of believe it or not, most people, in my experience, most people do not have a plan for when somebody in their family passes away, when a loved one passes away. So you're you're even you're helping them practically with, you know, giving them options so that they can make decisions like, is my loved one going to be buried or cremated? What a, you know, what organizations are out there that can help me do that if I'm not, if I, you know, I I can't afford a traditional funeral. Are there, are there alternative options up there? You know, just so that you can help even practically with that. And then obviously on the kind of emotional and spiritual and mental side, is just helping them process through that too, giving them resources. But what we recognized here, especially a big emphasis a few years ago, is that we were, we were trying to help and we had good relationships with our first responders. But it was never more than that kind of transactional relationship with, oh, hey, chaplain, thanks for being here. We really appreciate it. Hey, man, yeah, anything you need, let me know. And so we really wanted to be very cognizant of that. And so we started really focusing on we still do the community chaplain side of thing. And that's that's honestly a lot of what we do, but we have really done a huge emphasis on our first responders because we've just seen in any anybody in the first responder world, here's the statistics, here's the struggles, here's about the suicide rates and all that kind of stuff. And we just kind of wanted to say, no more.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Not in our area, no more. Like there are too many good people that have too many struggles that don't know where to turn. So let's provide them avenues and and resources so they know what they can do.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

And so, so yeah, exactly to your point. Ten years ago, that that wasn't really a big emphasis. Now we're trying to emphasize that more and more.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yeah. I hope that it grows along to the rest of the country, right? Because I know in certain parts of the country it's still very, you know, you just like you just go and you do your job and you go back. And, you know, I've seen, yeah, in the last month, I follow all the all the deaths and stuff like that. And I think that's where I was just like talking with my wife and just like something's gotta be talked about. Like, like, yes, there's podcasts and stuff like that that talk about different things, and then they go into the funny stuff, which there's still fun stuff part of the job. That's why we still do this. Sure. But the just the resources and how people like cope, and you know, you've been to a huge major event in this area, and I've helped hundreds of people get connected with with how they process and get through this like major event. Some people do, some people don't, but it's talking about it and saying that you're not alone that's a huge, a huge uh like Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

And I think this stigma, uh obviously there, I think there has even, you know, at least nationally, been a push for this a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

And it's but it's gonna take time. I think slowly the stigma is starting to go away. Yeah. But there still is that strong stigma of we have to be hard. We have to be hard. We can pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you know. Just get up, grin and bear it. You know, whatever, whatever the cliche is, is like you got to take care of yourself. And, you know, no.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

That's I don't have you ever talked to like people back home that maybe, you know, was it a volunteer department where you're at? Or is it back in L.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Yeah, it's it's still a volunteer department. In fact, both both my brothers, my younger brothers have served on it off and on, you know, over the last couple of decades.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

And how do they like, do they talk to you about stuff or do they actually have programs as well?

SPEAKER_02 34:42

So so no. Uh it would in my hometown that I know of, at least from my youngest brother being on the fire department volunteering still. No, they don't, they don't have an embedded program, peer support chaplain, or anything. It's you know, it's a it's a it's even a little bit of a smaller community yet, but it it's kind of just to a degree that good old boys club where they check in on each other. I there's good camaraderie there and stuff like that, no doubt. But you know, and they're the type of guys that, you know, it's a big crappy call, and then you're gonna you're gonna talk it out, you know, the next night around a campfire and or, you know, around the grill and a beer in your hand and you know, whatever. And and and to be honest, I think a lot of that's fine. In fact, that's a good first step. I remember, I remember, I think it was about a year after the slide, we had the fortunate ability for members of Darrington and Oso Fire got to sit down and listen to some retired New York fire department members that were involved in 9-11. And, you know, sharing their story and all the horrors that they experienced on that. And, you know, just really just eye-opening to hear from their perspective. But they were huge advocates on on the on the talk therapy is talk therapy. Just talk to somebody, somebody that you trust. That first line of defense isn't gonna necessarily be a peer support, a designated peer support person or a designated chaplain. It's gonna be somebody that you trust. It's gonna be, you know, your possibly your spouse. Yeah, your spouse or your your your your partner or whoever it is. It's gonna be that best bud that's got your back. It's gonna be your your a good friend. It's gonna be a somebody that can really be your your confidant that that you know that as you talk about it, they're gonna have your best interest in mind and it's not gonna go anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

And I think that's where a lot of I think that's where a lot of first responders actually get most of their processing done. But there are many first responders who don't even have that in their personal life. Yeah. They just don't, they just don't for whatever reason. And so that's where, that's really where that chaplin appears. So if you don't have that kind of built in, and I hope everybody does, but I understand that that can be a luxury. Some people don't have any idea of what to do with. Like, I don't have anybody. Like I'm a I'm a young single guy. Like, I I don't everybody go home too. I live 2,000 miles away from my family, you know, maybe I don't have a good relationship with my parents or, you know, whatever. So that's that's where they gotta And that's where the peer support is. That's where a good trusted peer support or chapel person can come in and EAP, depending on. And if you have an EMP, and there are good EAP programs down there, and like you say, sometimes you get connected with the good one, but then they're moved on to they may physically move away, find a different job, whatever, or they might be moved on to another case or moved on to something else. And and so it can be hit or miss. But the nice thing about peer support is there is a little bit of that inherent trust already built in because they are part of your department. They might not be on your shift. They could be, but they might not be on your shift. But they are they are on your department, they experience the same things you do, know the same struggles that you do within your own department, know the joys and the blessings of your department. And so there's kind of that you don't have to worry about all that background and all that fluff. Yeah. You can just get down to brass tacks and say, hey, that call we went on yesterday, that sucked.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

It sucked.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

And it sucked going on. And I thought, and I don't know why this one's bothering me, because I went on five like it in the last, you know, three months. This one got me, and I I can't figure it out. Well, what about it? I I don't know. Well, let's let's talk about it, or let's process, or what do you need? Or you know, it could be it could be something as silly as like, well, the the patient had the first name of my mom. Or the smell of the house reminded me of like like our senses, oh god, so weird. And they say sense of smell is most tied to memory. And so yeah, you bring up a great point with the smell, but that's just that's just it. That's the whole point is one, we need to give ourselves permission to feel those things.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Just and even if it doesn't make sense like that. Like I've been on this, I've been, I've been on this same type of call so many times. Why is this one give me? I I don't know that that's the way I mean why it's getting me maybe part of the right question, but let's ask the more pertinent question of what was what of the, you know, not why, but like what about it and what am I gonna do about it?

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Let's am I gonna go grab fifth whiskey and then go on a bender? Right. Because that's what I used to do. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, four days off, disappear for three, yeah, and then withdraw for one and go back to work. I know.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

And so and and we and the problem is is that works for that three days. For for that three days. Right. And then and the problem is is we need it to work longer than that, so it keeps going and going and going. And that's where we talk about healthy, healthy stuff. And and you can even overdo healthy stuff, you know? Yeah like, but you know, everything in moderation, right? The old saying. But the idea is is that stay away from my monsters. Yeah. Stay yeah, don't drink too many monsters because then your heart's gonna explode. And you know, but that that's just it, is like finding healthy and and you have to have this set

Building Resilience Before The Bad Call

SPEAKER_02 40:00

up. I think you almost have to have it set up even before you start this career. Like, like I I and we we've done a little bit of this in in our organization, and and we we continue to offer like resiliency training classes, but I almost think that there should be a whole section of like an academy dedicated to resiliency. I agree. To to, you know, we'll we'll spend we'll spend how many hours have you pulled a cross lay off of an engine at when you go through an academy? Like if you think about it. Like each day. Yeah. Like every day for you know, 14 weeks or you know however long your academy is, 20 weeks. Constantly, just and and that's important. And we need to do it for that muscle memory and that repetition because why? When it comes down to it, we we want to be able in in that kind of like just that high crazy moment of, oh my gosh, here's this big scene, and I've got to do it. Like we want that muscle memory built in so that we don't freak out in the moment, right? We go to our first fire, we go to the big one. Yeah. Why aren't we doing the same thing? 3 a.m. Yeah, 3 a.m. Like just part of our system. But why aren't we doing that with our ourselves? You know? We don't want to say something that needs to be. And so, yeah. And so we we we're trying to do that. You know, all of the agencies we we help represent have the oper, we don't force it, but they have the opportunity to take us up on at least two, one to two times a year where we do resilience training and we will come cover all the shifts. We just and and we get vi we talk about some of the hard stuff, we talk about some of the challenges, but then we we walk away with very practical ways to to be resilient, down to, you know, down to simple things like what are you eating? What are your sleeping habits? You know, how are you exerting yourself to help process, you know?

SPEAKER_00 41:55

And being self-aware enough. I know that I've been through one of the classes that Julie's put on. Yeah. And being self-aware enough of when I'm going down this road, this is when I need people to start to like put a check. Like the moment that I start showing up later than 7 30, right? And shift starts at eight. What's going on? Yeah. It's like, oh, I was just in traffic, so don't worry. Yeah. Like legit, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. You know, like, or hey, kids were up all night throwing up. I slept in a little more. I'm sorry. You know. And and I I think having that that checks and balances, you know, in your people on shift know you more than sometimes your home life, just because like depending on what that home life looks like, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Because you are with them 24 hours, 48 hours a time. Yeah. You eat with them, you sleep with like you sleep in the same area as them, you're riding in vehicles with them. You know, you say some weird stuff and they're like, what? You know? And you know, we've had some great conversations coming up from PROV, you know, because it's the 45-minute coming back, 55 sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Well, yeah, for our agency, yeah. Yeah, every bit of every bit of it. An hour almost, depending on traffic.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Anything that you would do different in your lifetime to do this longer, would you do this longer?

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Yeah, I'm I'm still passionate. I if you're asking about the you know, the chaplain and peer support things, yeah. Uh I'm still very passionate about it. I will do it longer. In fact, even I'm going to a training Saturday morning, you know, just to to to do some more. But on the on the flip side of that, I'm still very passionate about the fire service in general, too. Now, are there aspects of the job that kind of stink? Sure. When I got the opportunity to become fire chief, I did not I don't I didn't realize how much I knew about it, but I didn't realize how much of the politic side of things. It's it's my least favorite part of the job. But it's just even just the you know, trying to make people happy, trying to serve everybody well and stuff like that. The politics side of it is where people just have difference of opinion or different different, you know, maybe lenses that they're viewing it through. And yeah, that's just that's just a

Counseling Outlets And Staying Healthy

SPEAKER_02 44:12

struggle of it. But to for me to maintain this and be in this as long as I'm supposed to be, I want to be as healthy as I can. And so some of the things that I do is one, I have my I have my dedicated outlets. I have people that I trust that I can talk to and process with. I have those relationships that I have developed that are just invaluable to me so that when I'm having a tough time, I can talk to them about it. I can process. And because some of those people, I have people I talk on the phone or whatever, that don't even live in the same state. But then part the other group of that people are people that I live, you know, that I live life with, so to speak. And so they can even sense something's wrong and they can call me out on it. They can, hey, what's going on? And if I'm being a butthead or anything like that, they have permission to call me out on that too. Might not respond very graciously in the moment, but so that's a big thing. It's just finding those people. If you don't have that, finding those people that you can do that with and have those relationships. Um, I'm a big advocate of counseling. I have I have spent time in counseling, you know, after the slide, I was helping people basically for about a year. But in uh at the end, very end of January, my wife and I, you know, just just to help us out, not not that there was anything super major, but just to help us out, we went through an intensive two-week therapy session separately and together. And then it was twice a week for a few weeks after that, and then it was once a week for a few weeks after that, and it was like monthly check-ins. Um so anytime I feel like I feel like something's going on, you know, I can I can have those check-ins again. Why? Because you have an objective third party that if they're a good counselor, they have your best interest in mind. They've got training, they've got tools and perspective and all this kind of stuff that they can help you with, and it just it's just a lot better. So I'm a big advocate of that too. I'm a big advocate of healthy, healthy, fun things to do. You got it. This this job can be consuming. It can be all consuming. I think there's too many people that would be listening to you to your podcast over the time that it has literally taken every aspect of their life.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Their marriage, their children, their everything. Relationships, you know. And so to have healthy outlets, some something fun, you know, focus on family, focus on friends, focus on fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

You gotta you gotta do that because you turn off a active 911, you've got to turn off shear your your basically turn off everything that has to do with work. Right. And focus on right.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

And and that's just a way to process. Sleep well. Like obviously, you know, we could sit here and talk about all the stuff to do with sleep and and what shift work does to that and and the challenges and getting up in the middle of the night and breaking your rim cycle. Like, yeah, I could I could talk about that. That's a whole episode. That's a whole episode. And and there's a gentleman I could refer you to that's uh director of a sleep study at Washington State University that is probably one of the most premier sleep experts.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

He presented, I think, first quarter at the at the uh Washington State Fire Safety.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

He did. I I think that's the same gentleman. And I just got to hear him at the Northwest Leadership Conference too, and it was just just amazing. And but yeah, like, yeah, you could go through all that. His wife's his boss, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. She's she's the director of like the whole, he he runs the sleep study, and she's a director of like the whole department. Yeah. That's true. Yep. Same guy. Yeah. Okay. And so, but yeah, you just have all of that. And but, you know, sleep well when you're at home. Find healthy outlets, find physical activities to do. Don't just sit around on a couch or in a lazy boy all day, you know. Like, get out, play, touch grass. You know, sometimes you just need to touch grass. Like, you know, so for me personally, yeah, it's having that. Like, I have, you know, great friends that I can go do stuff with. I have, you know, activities and hobbies, and and most of all, I have the most supporting family that you could ever want. Like my wife is my is my rock star. She's she just she is so good, and I'm so blessed to be married to her. And then our daughter Jalen is is just she's the joy of our lives. And and and just spending time with them is just that that can that can cover a multitude of of sins as well, just uh from from work. But but yeah, the other things like I play drums in a band. I work on a 1980 Chevy Love. I I like mowing the yard, you know, I go for hikes and camps and whatever, you know, try to plan time off with some vacations here and there. Like those, those are all just very practical things. Yeah, you know, advocate for eating right. Now, I am not a poster child for eating right all the time, but but healthy in, healthy out, you know, like if you consume good foods and and consume and exercise and do all that kind of stuff, like that all helps, believe it or not. That all contributes to your mental psychological processing. So those are all things that that I do that I hope other people could find similar avenues to do.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Well, and especially sharing that the counselor needed a counselor, right? Sure. Oh, the firefighter needs a firefighter sometimes. And you know, we're we all need need our outlets for sure.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

I mean that that's exactly there. I mean, the nice part is is even amongst our chaplain and peer support teams, like we all check in on each other. Like, like let's say, let's say I'm responding to a call and the short report comes across and it seems particularly traumatic. I I will have no less than three to five text messages on my phone, like, hey, let me know if you need anything. Hey, good, you know, praying for you on this one, you know, let me know if you need whatever. I'll I'll I'll have a slew of those.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

And and likewise I'm sending those too. If I'm not on, but I see somebody's, you know, we just see a call come across or know anything, like we just reach out and and take care of each other. So yeah, yeah, sometimes the chaplain needs a chaplain, sometimes the peer support needs peer support, sometimes the counselor needs a counselor. And yeah, and that's exactly it. To think that just because we're in a position where we try to help others doesn't mean that we don't need help for ourselves. I think I think that's that's probably the first sign that you actually do need help.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you think that you don't need help, you probably do need it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

And I would say that to anybody. If you if you think, ah no, I got this. I'm fine. I don't need anything.

unknown 50:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

I think that's your first admission to that you probably need some outside perspective in your life, which is really all counseling and and and conversation is. It's somebody else's perspective to what you're going through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

So and it's just like the like like you say, a lot of us don't grow up with the coping skills being taught or you know. But yeah, I think that we all we all get in this to help people, and we all need help at some point. We we absolutely all do, yes. Yeah. So but thank you for this. This it's been fantastic. Of course. I'm glad that we could get to get together and share a different perspective. And uh, I feel very fortunate to be a part of your team now. And yeah, and uh we're glad to have you. Yeah, I am I'm I love

Final Words And What To Do

SPEAKER_00 51:29

being here. And yeah, so if anyone listening felt like this maybe triggered you and that you need some peer support, contact that person that you that you feel trusted, right? You're you're definitely not alone. And thanks for listening. Have a great week. Well, that's a wrap on this one. If something we talked about hits home, share it with somebody who needs to hear it. You probably already know who that is. New episodes drop every week. I'm Jake. This is Call Residue. Stay safe out there, and if you're not okay, that's okay too. We'll talk about it.